I gotta say that I am tired of having to be on the defense for Conservative Republic values. I'm tired of defending specific Republicans in office and at the same time indirectly defending my intellect because I side with them... Sometimes it feels as if there is a closet that I'm coming out of admitting that I am a conservative.
Today I went on a long walk with my dogs and had a thought. I'm pretty sure most Americans want the same thing... However, I cannot say that America has maintained unity on the core values that formed this nation. Yet, I believe that the desired outcome is what all American's can agree on.
Don't all Americans Right and Left want a booming economy? Don't all Americans want to care for those who cannot care for them selves? Don't all Americans want to feel secure? Don't all Americans want the right to be heard and the right to say what they want?
I'm absolutely sure that if you made an "end goal" list of wants for this country, the level of importance or priority might differ but the lists among Left and Right would have to be pretty similar. So why is there such a dichotomy between Right and Left?
Why do Republicans believe Obama is a terrible mistake and Democrats think Palin is a fool?
America's polarization is made by the contrasting beliefs as to which road is the best way to achieve the American Ideals.
I am not articulate enough to describe this further without examples. (If anyone ever actually reads these, I do want to be fair and try to describe these examples as they are. However, I am a Republican, I am a Conservative so read these understanding that I do have a side)
1) Education:
The U.S. education system is a failed project from its low rankings worldwide to the quality and results on the most basic levels. Flat out, teachers have crowded classrooms, are under paid and have no way of advancing for their better results.
In California last year there were 6,000,000 students enrolled in school. California spends $10,000 per student, per year for public schools. For the 6,000,000 students there were roughly 300,000 teachers (including substitutes). 6,000,000 x $10,000 = $60,000,000,000... $60 billion dollars a year toward education in just California alone. Just to put that into perspective... 60 billion seconds ago Jesus was walking around. Or, even more perspective... $60,000,000,000 divided by 300,000 teachers is roughly, $200,000.00 per teacher. However teachers earn on average in California $60,000.00 per year (before taxes) so $60,000 x 300,000 teacher = $18 billion dollars... So where is the other $42 billion spent EVERY YEAR?
California schools have zero accountability on spending and progress. California ranks as one of the lowest in the country in terms of meeting educational minimum requirements. Worse, Arnold is about to pass a bill that will increase spending per pupil to $11,000...
To say that the "system" is broken is to qualify the piss-poor public schools as a functioning system. Still Democrats demand that the problem is that we are not paying enough in education. Even after they enacted a measure that dictates that 50¢ of every tax dollar California brings in goes to education on top of California Lottery revenues. You have to ask your self how they come to this conclusion, especially when there is greater correlation between more spent per students and failing schools than successful schools and less spent. In other words, in the U.S., the more we spend on education the worse our schools do. That fact could not be made more clearly than the comparison between Utah's $5000 per student per year and Washington DC's $15,000 per student per year. W.D.C.'s effectiveness is so below Utah's that you almost can’t compare the two.
It is a fact that one of the leading contributors to the Democratic Party (who donates in the 10's of millions to them) are the teachers unions.
Republicans have been fighting for school vouchers. What this would do is privatize education. It would give the parents the amount that the state spends on each student in their household to spend where they feel they will get the best education. Schools will be forced to compete for students and in tern re-direct the money spent on union leaders and multi-redundant administration positions to more qualified teachers.
The teacher's unions in turn will become complacent and unneeded since it will be the performance of the teacher that will dictate their value and not the collective body of teachers (a large portion of which are utterly useless in that position).
The logical conclusion is that if Democrats stop getting in the way of the motions to transition into vouchers then they are basically forfeiting 10's of millions of dollars in donations from teachers unions. One could gather that Democrats care more about the money that they receive from teachers unions than the students who they use as propaganda. The lack of value students really have is already shown in school districts when cutbacks are unavoidable... It is always the teachers who feel the cutbacks, never the Union leaders, NEVER the multi-redundant administration.
2) Small Business and The Rich
In the last couple elections "the rich" have been demonized by Democrats. In the most recent election there has been a distortion of truths by our new president that asserted that George Bush was giving tax breaks to the "rich" meanwhile leaving a struggling middle class and the poor in the economic dust. What Obama didn't say is that group that earns the wages that he called "rich" are in fact not the individuals but the small businesses that those individuals own which employs of over 70% of the U.S. workforce... What that means is that all those business have to change their prices and or lay-off emplyees to compensate for their loss in earnings from higher taxes for their business… Obama’s “rich” somehow does not include the independently wealthy, the trust fund babies, the wall street multi millionares,… Obama is taxing the Americans who take risks, work and produce jobs… In the name of helping the middle class he instead hurts them.
3) Higher Taxes & An Inconsistent Philosophy
It has been a long tradition of Democrats to tax various things to discourage their use, such as cigarettes… The increasing cost of cigarettes is always justified by explaining that the tax will help in decreasing the purchasing of them. Another tax based sales discouragement has been proposed in the recent past is one of cars that are not “efficient”. A certain bill is going to be voted on soon that would raise the taxes on a car based on its gas mileage and emissions output. The idea was brought to the table to “encourage” people to buy more environmentally friendly cars.
Because smoking has been so associated with so many different forms of illness (all without any real proof) Americans allow higher and higher taxes to be attached to cigarettes, now the same with emissions. Whether or not you believe the hype about Global Warming it doesn’t matter, your choice in cars will be narrowed by government fiat.
Regardless on what you feel about taxing things it is a fact that Democrats use taxes to discourage use.
That fact begs the question as to why then do Democrats believe that the same principle doesn’t apply to individuals and business? Democrats want to raise taxes on income, on productivity, on capital gains on anything that you can make money on. Why would anyone invest when you are penalized for doing so? Why would anyone get married when your combined income might put you in a worse tax bracket? Why would anyone want to be more productive when you are taxed more for it?
4) Universal Healthcare
Have you ever been to an all you can eat buffet? If you have, how many times have you packed on way more than you can eat just because you could. How much food get thrown away because of that wasteful indulgence? How much more waist would it be if it was also free?
Apply that scenario to doctor visits. However the difference would be that we would be paying for through higher taxes. The Federal Government would have to create a budget and force medical facilities to work within that budget. This budgeting of resources would directly effect the time a doctor can spend on an individual patient. Not only that it would discourage doctors from using costly tests to determine an illness to stay inside of a budget. Doctors time and resources would be rationed creating a shortage...
This is currently happening in every country that has universal healthcare (except Sweden and that is only because of their very small population and extremely high taxes)
5) Redefining Liberty and Unions (copied from an earlier entry)
Though the laws of physics make it impossible, it would seem that the story that leads up to George Orwell’s book “1984” actually starts in the year 2009. How can a man have such foresight about the undermining of logic and common sense, and, the events that lead up to that lost society in his book?
1984 is known mostly by its ironic depiction of a false reality. Its fictional society (Oceania) is ran by a group known as “The Party” which implies that there is an opposing view in another “party” but in Oceania, there is not. several bureaucracies run Oceania. “The Ministry of Peace” which is responsible for the never ending war against other nations, “The Ministry of Plenty”, which is responsible for food rationing and controlling of goods, The Ministry of Truth”, which controls all the propaganda and history revisions of Oceania, and “The Ministry of Love”, this agency is responsible for the identification, monitoring, arrest and torture of dissidents, real or imagined.
How far are we from those fronts? In 2009 we confront “The Free Choice Act” which allows union officials to know who votes against their initiatives by removing the right of secret ballot by employees and union members. How does that make one more free?
In 1963 The First Amendment was re-worded to remove prayer in public schools yet today in the name of multiculturalism some schools give Islamic children an extra recess to pray. What is that about?
Pro-Choice advocates (including President Obama) want to make a federal law that “protects kids” by making it illegal for school officials to inform children’s parents that they are having an abortion. There is no age too young. Pro-Choice advocates fight every year to keep “abortion rights" off the ballot so it cannot be voted on giving people the choice. How is that “pro-choice”?
The “Fairness Act” is an initiative to regulate talk radio so that conservative talk shows have to give an equal time to opposing views. Talk-Radio is one of the few places where a conservative message is heard since that message is ostracized from schools, media, movies, and TV… Isn’t a free market fair? Doesn’t every one get the same opportunity to fight for ratings? How is this “fair”?
Some universities who claim to treasure "free exchange of ideas" will fire, remove, or defund any views that encourage any study into Intelligent design or programs that debunk "Climate Change®"...
The American Recovery & Reinvestment Act, better known as the stimulus for 2009. Over 90% has nothing to do with the economy or business almost all the beneficiaries are among the constituency of the Democratic Party, who ironically endlessly accuse Republicans of paying off special interest groups. "Reinvestment act” is the key phrase.
Prop 75 was an initiative that gave union workers the right to opt out of dues that were going to political groups that they did not support. The AEU (American Teachers Union) garnished extra dues from its workers (who cannot work unless they are apart of the union) to fight this bill. The Unions paid over $40 million to fight Prop 75, all the while telling its members (through union paid-for propaganda) that the bill removed their rights to be heard. Meaning, THE UNION LEADERS LIED TO THE UNION MEMBERS TO KEEP THEM FROM HAVING TO BE ACCOUNTABLE FOR THE MONEY THEY TAKE. The bill would have made the accounting transparent so that its members could see what the dues were used for. Up and down the street where I live were more people than I’ve ever seen here with signs that read “Don’t let Schwarzenegger take our voice”. When in reality it was the unions who were taking their voice and its members were voting for it...
Forget 1984, welcome to “Hope” and “Change” in 2009
Friday, February 27, 2009
Wednesday, February 18, 2009
Obama Shouldn't Be Disrespecting His VP
We haven't had a chance to sit down and write anything out in a while but that doesn't mean there hasn't been some fun conversations. Below is a little debate one of us had on Facebook with some friends... Its a bit long but funny. I will warn you the ending someone makes a vulgar joke... I responded... but I apologize in advance...
This was my Facebook Note Post:
To anyone who reads this note,
The other day I left a post (which was sarcastic) that read something to the effect of "thanks America, JB is a great VP..."
I said it because President Obama in his reinventing of the office of president doesn't feel he owes the office of Vice President the respect to refer to Vice President Biden as "Vice President Biden" instead he calls him "Joe"... and ads insult to injury by dismissing a question as to what "Joe" was quoted saying. President Obama answered, "does anyone know what Joe is talking about"... Apparently President Obama in all his wisdom already forgot that Vice President Biden was his choice. If it was a bad one doesn't that, shouldn't that reflect on President Obama?
Add that to the many passes our new president is getting. It seems no matter what, his administration will be a huge success because nobody will hold him accountable to his actions or choices.
Either way, that innocent post took a bad turn. Two of my friends started a debate that I was pretty bummed to have associated with my page... Somehow, someway, their debate invoked the Iraq war, the holocaust and (like all political debates) the inevitable and cliche' comparison between Hitler and someone
That I cannot handle.
So for all you out there who learn your history and get your news from bumper stickers, this one is for you.
The United States is in a war for the 21st century. We fight a group that has no army, no uniform no loyalty to any one state. A group driven by a twisted ideology that puts their cause above any human value.
When America was attacked on September 11th, The United States could no longer ignore the 1000's of attacks on the U.S's sovereignty throughout the last 25 years, including the bombing of a U.S. embassy and the U.S.S. Cole.
In the MIddle East there are several nations who fund and support those activity including Syria, Saudi Arabia, Iran and Iraq. All have/had corrupt leaders but none were as unstable as Iraq. Before President Bush, during the Clinton administration and before 9/11, the Clinton administration and most everyone in both houses of Congress felt it should be the next administration's priority to remove Saddam Hussein.
If you look on a map of the Middle East you might also see that Iraq is unique in that it is in the Middle of the Middle East.
President Bush and almost everyone in Congress as well as all western countries believed that Saddam Hussein had the money, the means, and the will to be a greater and greater threat.
After going into Iraq it was discovered that Kofi Annan was trading supplies illegally with Saddam for oil from Iraq. This turn also indicted both France and Germany (two countries who were against the invasion of Iraq). Ironically, those fools who have the "No Blood for Oil" stickers (and deck graphics) don't seem to hear or read the news. Because it was the leader of the U.N., France and Germany who traded and were standing by as Saddam invaded Libya, killing 1000's and used biological weapons against a region of his own country killing over 250,000 people.
As for the deaths of Iraq. Recently, the man who was tallying the body count of Iraq at over 1,000,000 Iraq's is being charged with corruption of information... According to Iraq's records since the U.S. invaded Iraq there has been 50,000 casualties. Close to 4300 of which are U.S. soldiers and 35000 who are Syrians, Saudis, and other aliens to Iraq. Leaving a death toll of 11,000 Iraq's most of who have been killed by the outside forces who are fighting the U.S.
All this is completely confirmable to most any new organization.
As for the comparison of George Bush and Hitler. It seems ridiculous to have to even explain this but Hitler obviously committed genocide, killing off gypsies, the crippled, gays, many Polish, and in greater numbers, the Jews. He was driven by a desire to create what he called the Third Reich, (Third Empire) and "the perfect society" by way of murdering all those thought to be "unworthy of life" Hitler's SS army humiliated their prisoners by stripping them naked in groups and parading them, raping them, starving them, working them to death and, shooting them at random
There has been a calculation of over 12,000,000 deaths because of Hitler.
George Bush's legacy is a free Iraq, a safe country after our biggest attack on the U.S. ever... His greatest failure is not conveying his successes. To compare George Bush and Hitler is either incredibly naive, completely uneducated or completely unconnected to reality or devoid any intelligence.
Ignorance is a luxury freedom affords.
This was the debate!
its a long one... I changed the names of everyone... my comments start out with "Heroic Fools", the person I am debating is "N.P." and some friends B.B. K.R. and R.R.R. chime in... Enjoy...
N.P. at 9:13am February 13:
"Hitler's SS army humiliated their prisoners by stripping them naked in groups and parading them, raping them, starving them, working them to death and, shooting them at random".
Really? Ever heard of Abu Ghraib? Guantanamo BAy? Weird how I missed all that photographic evidence of those atrocities.....Oh, wait I did see those! Under George Bush's military command, the SAME things happened. Weird.
I'm sorry you mistake actual truth for ignorance, it'd be nice to live in this Utopian society where Christianity and Republican ideals solved all. Unfortunately we tried the republican way the last 8 years and the COuntry turned to shit. Now is the part where you say that it wasn't Bush's fault, it all just fell into his lap. "His greatest failure is not conveying his successes? Really? And what successes were these? The unlimited amounts of WMDs found in Iraq? An economy that is in the toilet? Highest unemployment rates in 50 years? I must be naive and devoid of intelligence.
Heroic Fools: at 9:41am February 13
Intelligence maybe not be what you are missing, but factual information and perspective is. If you are comparing 7 men who were in their underwear (who were being held for terrorist activities) by a few soldiers who have been since put in prison to the thousands of INNOCENT men and women dehumanized, stripped down naked (no underwear) in front of each other in the freezing cold, and actually tortured to the point of death, then there is no debate here.
If you cannot see the difference and actually equate the two events then at least we are clear where you stand. I'm absolutely sure EVERY human being in those Nazi camps would have traded places with anyone in Abu Ghraib or Gitmo...
Its also too bad you have such a vendetta against Conservatives, Christians, and Republicans since this country and your freedoms were founded on two of those ideals.
Heroic Fools: at 10:11am February 13
Oh and this country and this economy... I can appreciate your sarcasm but here are facts:
in 2005-2006-and 2007 Republicans (including President Bush) warned the Congress and Senate (who have been Democrat majorities for the last 2 years) about the need for regulations on banks who were tying up bad loans from unqualified applicants with good ones. The housing market crashed because of a Democrat initiative to create housing for poorer people by forcing banks to lower their standard for un-qualify applicants. Barney Frank Chair of the Banking Committee was quoted saying, "there was no problem". And, any bill that tried to go through both the House and Senate by Reps was blocked by a party vote with the Dems voting against any measure...
The market crashed, homeowners defaulted, banks lost billions and ended credits for businesses, freezing the economy... From there weaker business starting failing...
The President is only one branch in this government...
Facts are hard to avoid...
N.P.: at 11:49am February 13
Oh really??? FOX news does NOT constitute fact based news...
"The Bush administration backed off proposed crackdowns on no-money-down, interest-only mortgages years before the economy collapsed, buckling to pressure from some of the same banks that have now failed. It ignored remarkably prescient warnings that foretold the financial meltdown, according to an Associated Press review of regulatory documents."
“Expect fallout, expect foreclosures, expect horror stories,” California mortgage lender Paris Welch wrote to U.S. regulators in January 2006, about one year before the housing implosion cost her a job.
N.P.:at 12:00pm February 13
ANd as far as being against the ideals this country was founded on? Not true. I can't get behind this Christian holier than though approach to life. Christian have made horrid and despicable judgements on non-Christians based on a system of beliefs that come from nothing more factual then fairy tales. They pick and choose which part of the Bible to read literally and which can be skewed to plead their case for whatever specific hot topic has arisen at that moment. Ever enjoyed shrimp or shellfish? The Bible says it is not to be eaten. One of many passages that are dismissed by the good Christian people. You either take it literally, or you take it contextually. Or if you're a MODERN Christian, you pick and choose what is taken literally and what is not....
N.P.: at 12:05pm February 13
I'd love to hang around this fireside chat, but I'm off to Vegas for a weekend of "liberal" based activities and debauchery. Let me know how the liberal bashing goes...
Heroic Fools: at 1:33pm February 13
Its nice that you can research events N.P., but you might realize at some point that the President can only make motion to a bill and cannot pass it without approval from the Congress and Senate. With an unbudging Democrat majority, the Bush administration had to move their attentions elsewhere. Not to mention that if anyone should have been warning us it should have been Barney Frank (Democrat) the chairman of the House Financial Services Committee which oversees the housing and banking industries.
Its funny how facts keep getting in the way of your opinions.
As far as you points on the bible. You've been mislead. You are confusing many issues, one being the difference between Hebraic laws and the new covenant of Christianity as well as the bible's recording of events contrasted with the bible's directions.
Arguably, you have the holier than thou attitude, and want to push your faiths on other people. This all started because I disagreed with your comparison of Hitler and Bush
R.R.R.: at 2:01pm February 13
Hey Heroic Fools, check this out:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cMnSp4qEXNM&NR=1
You will need to copy and paste it into your browser.
N.P., I would like to hear your thoughts on the video above...when you get back of course!
N.P.: at 2:01pm February 13
4 diatribes about how all my opinions are invalid and my facts don't hold any weight, and you wanna say I'm holier than thou? That is laughable. I guess I should just be quiet about it cuz I'm obviously wrong. On the flip side, I guess I should be happy that you didn't tell me that I need to find Jesus or tell me that you're going to pray for me. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree here...
Heroic Fools:at 2:20pm February 13
I can't say that I care if you "find Jesus" but I sure hope you find peace... You're pretty angry...
B.B. at 7:18pm February 13
Impressive, Heroic Fools. I would love to comment, but there's not a whole lot that I could possibly add.
But, N.P., I will say that Jesus, said that "Its not what goes into a man that makes him unclean, but what comes out." So I can eat shellfish six ways to Sunday and its ok, cause the Sone of God said it was ok.
And maybe you should leave our Christian faith out of it. Based upon what you have written, you are ignorant as to what the body of Christ (Christians) stands for.
And of course you need to find Jesus! How much would I have to hate you to tell you that you didnt? Cause I can promise you that any other way will end really really badly.
N.P.: at 8:08pm February 13
awwwe, thanks for your concern B.B. Realizing that you don't know me from Adam, know my history, educational background, or whether or not I enjoy a good game of devils advocate, let me ask you. How do you know a relationship with Jesus will keep me from experiencing this bad bad ending? Can you unequivocally prove that? Or are u basing that statement on faith? And if so, what about human beings on this earth who live their entire lifetime having never been introduced to Jesus or Christianity? Under your set of beliefs, are those humans then condemned to eternal damnation? And if that isn't the case, then is it different for someone in civilized society to learn about Christianity and choose to believe differently? Would that person be condemned? If so, prove it...
B.B.:at 10:35pm February 13
Haha, I dont have to know you or know anything about you to care about you. It's just one of the things Christ has taught me. Haha, a nd I can tell that you obviously enjoy playing devil's advocate, otherwise we wouldnt be having this discussion. I can tell that youre a knowledgeable guy though, which is admirable, but at the same time I think it works against you.
I know Christ is the only one that can and will save you from this "bad ending" based upon what scripture teaches. I wish more than anything to prove it to you, but I cant nor will I be able to until Christ returns. Faith in Christ is what is necessary for salvation...If I could scientifically prove it to you, what merit would there be in placing your faith in Christ as payment for your sins? It wouldnt be faith then. God just wants you to CHOOSE Him. But, yeah, Its all based on faith. Your unequivocal proof requires faith.
B.B.: at 10:52pm February 13
Now, on to your other question, which is a good question by the way. I come acrossed it a lot. Its true, there are people who live their entire lives without ever being introduced to the idea of Jesus or Christianity.
Based upon what I have learned from the Bible, I believe that in the course of every persons life, they have a revelation. Its nothing crazy. Its not like an acid trip or anything like that. Its a moment of insight where they naturally come to the knowledge that God the Father exists, and He is holy. With this they also come to the understanding that they are sinful and deserving of punishment. Scripture says that everyone in their heart has an understanding of true right and wrong, not a relative truth, but an absolute truth. They know they are guilty and in need of sanctification. So, if a person like this is condenmed, it's not because they rejected Christ, but because they still rejected the one true God.
B.B.: at 10:56pm February 13
Further more, in this age of civilized modernism, if someone learns of Christ and chooses to believe otherwise, scripture teaches that they are condenmed.
And of course, all that too is based on scripture and faith, which I understand is a tough concept for you, but maybe one day...I hope you will understand.
N.P.: at 10:24am February 15
So B.B., you're unequivocal proof requires faith? Seems like all rational thought would tell you that is a bit oxymoronic. If I have faith that I'm going to marry Angelina Jolie, and I truly believe that, then it will prove to be unequivocally true? Awesome!
And this whole notion of people knowing they are deserving of punishment seems awfully masochistic. I've been introduced to the notion of Christ, and yet I don't feel any inkling of needing any punishment. I live my life treating others as I wish to be treated and surprisingly enough I never have the feeling that I need to be punished. Isn't that the summation of Christs teachings? All those parables and chapters in the Bible and I feel that is the overall message. Sitting in a building 1-7 days a week singing and praying works for some I suppose, those that need constant reassurance that they are loved and are living the "right" way. I don't find that necessary when I already believe I'm living the right way. I just can't believe that Christ is soooo angry that he wants the entire human race to be punished and to live in constant, unrelenting fear...
N.P.: at 10:59am February 15
And just to tie this back to the original topic, I guess Georgie W was rather Christ-like afterall. He ruled his minions by keeping them in a state of permanent fear. We were all so fearful that Iraq had WMDs that we allowed him to march us into Iraq killing our young people for absolutely nothing. It's so sad to me that all those brave soldiers were killed following this un-intelligence put forth by Bush and his regime. And to those that say, well we had to, sadam was looking to take control of all the middle eastern oil, I have 2 responses. First being, if that was indeed the case about Sadam looking to take over the worlds oil supply, then why did the Bush administration tell the world he was harboring al-Qaeda terrorists and had WMDs, neither of which have been proven true. Why not say, hey, sadam is going to take over control of all oil if we don't go over and stop him. I could at least respect that. And secondly, why did gas prices reach record highs years after Sadam was out and the US had control of the region? Seems to me that we did exactly what sadam was supposedly going to do, and oil prices still skyrocketed. It's okay, I am confident that eventually all the truths will come out and Bush's legacy will forever reflect his failures and that he used his time in office to achieve his personal goals while leaving the interests of our nation in a very distant second..
R.R.R.: at 2:30pm February 15
N.P., our faith is not based on some random notion that popped into our head, or someone else's head for that matter. It is based on historical FACT. Become familiar with history and you will find that Jesus is not some myth or a notion, as you call it. It kills me that you took what Benjamin was saying and turned it into I don't "feel any inkling of needing any punishment" in regards to Christ. Christ didn't come to punish. He came to save humanity from being punished, through His love...His unconditional love. Whether you like it or believe it or not...we will all be judged in the end. But He does NOT want to punish you. I'm bummed that you are this hostile toward God. But God loves us so much that he gives us the choice to accept Him or not. He doesn't make us believe in Him. But I just wanted to join in b/c I felt you took Benjamin's comment to mean something that wasn't said, or that you misunderstood it.
R.R.R.: at 2:36pm February 15
But N.P., you know I love you!!! And I can't wait to read more of these hot debates that you, and K.R., everyone else gets into. I'm not as well versed in the political thing as my hubby is...so I will leave that part to him :). I can hold my own...
N.P.: at 2:55pm February 15
R.R.R. I have no hostility towards God. I have hostility agsint the idea that there is only 1 correct way to live life. And if you don't fall inline, u are condemned. Why would god make us all so different and then make us conform to 1 ideology? I love and respect everyone and appreciate that they find their own system of beliefs. I don't look down my nose at them and snicker as MANY Christians feel they have the right to do. As far as the notion of Jesus, I just misspoke, I meant the teachings of Jesus. Now I ask u to reread what Benjamin wrote. "With this they understand they are sinful and deserving of punishment.". That was in his answer in response to my question about human beings never exposed to Gods word. He Is saying that these people have a revelation out of nowhere because they feel they've done wrong and are deserving to be punished. I love how people assume I'm angry and without peace Because my view differs from their own. Especially those of you who know me in real life and have for years. Do I come across as angry and without peace in person? I feel like I'm really accepting and loveable, maybe I'm wrong.....
N.P.: at 3:07pm February 15
Haha, R.R.R., you know I love you guys, its not a personal thing on either side...i hope. But these debates have gone on for the length of history and will continue long after we're gone. I do enjoy them quite a bit too...
K.R.: at 4:51pm February 15
unequivocal truth.
you only believe in things that can be unequivocally proven?
Is everything you believe based on unequivocal truth?
It seems you set an unreasonable standard since nothing is unequivocal. Everything is open to some imaginary doubt.
R.R.R.: at 7:06pm February 15
No, N.P…you don't come across as angry in person at all! Just over the computer :) haha! But I do understand that it is human nature to question and raise doubt, especially over the things we can't see. How else do we find truth without researching? I know what I believe, and I believe the Bible is the infallible Word of God. I have to put my full trust in God and His promises. And I have never been let down...even in the hard times. Like I mentioned before, the great thing about God is that he gave us free choice when he created us...so we choose our own destiny. He doesn't make us do anything we don't want to. Yeah, the road is narrow...but the reward is great! And I don't think we are all that different. We are all humans and we ALL have sin in our hearts. And I am no better than the next guy. But I thank God everyday that my sins are forgiven...by the blood that Jesus shed for me and you! We can accept it or not. Sorry to get all "religious" on you...
Heroic Fools: at 12:01am February 16
In response to N.P.'s last question:
I think everyone can agree that an accusation only takes one sentence but an explanation can take many. If it would satisfy your intellect I could just say “you are mistaken or wrong” but I’m assuming you (like most) reasonable people need evidence, which is why I offer my “diatribes” as you say.
Question: If George Bush went to Iraq to steal oil, spending 100’s of billions and soldier's lives, why didn’t he use all his evil manipulating skills, (saving time and money) and work his magic on local environmentalist? The U.S. has more oil domestically than Iraq in the OCS, in ANWR, in Utah and Colorado’s reserves. Somehow Bush is so intelligent that he manipulated the entire world to agree that Iraq needed to be invaded (including past admins), all the while wanting to steal the oil, yet he somehow is so dumb to miss that we have more oil domestically that is protected by an environmental act (which he has the power to repeal as president
N.P.: at 12:51am February 16
Kevin, everything is open to some imaginary doubt? Really? Nothing in this world is absolute? Hmmmm. Pretty sure the sun rises in the East and sets in the west for an example. Everything in this world has cause and effect....everything. Its how we prove and disprove theories, scientifically, based on facts. Can you imagine what this world would be like if we left everything up to faith and chance? Absolutes are instrumental in maintaining and exceeding our standards of life...
N.P.: at 10:27am February 16
Here's another interesting link regarding Bush's premature plans to invade Iraq. http://dir.salon.com/story/opinion/feature/2004/04/20/woodward_clarke/index.html
K.R.: at 11:46am February 16
It takes faith to believe the sun will rise tomorrow. You are not beyond the shadow of a doubt 100% positive the sun will rise tomorrow. You believe it will because it did yesterday and the day before.
Regarding Bush's evil plan to invade Iraq before 9/11.
Are you aware the United States has a plan to invade every country in the World? And every country has a plan to invade us. It's this nasty concept liberals hate wrapping their logical scientific brains around. It's called human nature. Since Adam and Eve, assuming you believe in them, human nature has been to kill and maim one another. If you prefer the animal kingdom, it's called survival of the fittest. No matter how you shake it, humanists are in for a heartbreak. It probably helps to blame one person for everything... it helps you make sense of the world.
N.P.: at 12:39pm February 16
And what would happen to your faith if the sun didn't come up tomorrow?
And K.R., you actually believe it was a random coincidence that of all these contingency plans we have for war against other countries, Iraq was magically pulled from the hat? Come on, you are smarter than that. There is proof that Bush had plans to invade Iraq during his campaign, before he even stole his way to the presidency in 2000. It is no secret that the Bush family was heavily involved with middle eastern oil families, including the Bin Ladens, which he flew out of our country the morning of 9/11. Its no secret that middle eastern oil powers would have loved to remove Sadam from power because he stood in the way of them gaining total control of the region. Its also widely documented that W thought his father should've taken care of Sadam in the first Iraq war. With that personal interest and Rove/Cheney egging him on, its no coincidence that we are at war in Iraq today...
Heroic Fools: at 1:00pm February 16
I try to stay away from teaming up in debates. And I do have a response for the last thing you told me earlier but EVERYTHING in this last comment from you is presumed assumed faith. Most of which is wrong and or distorted. Would it surprise you that Saudi Arabia were Bill Clintons biggest contributer for his library? Or that his ties are much deeper than the Bush family to the Saudis? Or are you getting your information from Michael Moore?
K.R.: at 1:26pm February 16
N.P.,
Read "The Looming Tower" by: Lawrence Wright.
Great book, won the Pulitzer Prize.
It's not slanted one way or the other. Clearly your views are slanted, and I believe you want the facts.
It doesn't paint GW as Satan much to your disappointment, but it does lay out many facts that will perhaps put the current world climate in perspective.
N.P.: at 1:59pm February 16
Heroic Fools,
Which comments are you talking about that presume assumed faith? Its fact that the members of the Bin Laden family were flown out of the country the morning of 9/11, while every other plane was forced to be grounded. And how can you refute the FACTS from my previous statement regarding countries that did not approve of the Bush invasion of Iraq? Those are facts. You claimed Bush gained the approval of the entire world before invading Iraq, which in fact is NOT true. And the only major ally, Great Brittain, tried repeatedly to get Bush to allow UN sanctions to do their job until finally being brow beaten into conforming..
1 more quick question, how may trillions of dollars were spent building the Clinton library, and more importantly, how many thousands died? Not exactly the same thing as the ties the Bush family shared with the Saudi's...
Heroic Fools:at 2:17pm February 16
My last comment was in response to your comments about the Bush/Saudi Relationship. Not your prior comment about the countries who did not vote to invade Iraq. For that I have a response that I don't have time to word correctly to fit into these comment boxes. However, your assertions are draw many parallels to the fictional movie "Fahrenheit 9/11"... And Those assertions are based on faith of which you have no "unequivocal proof". But to be clear, you are implying that there was a conspiracy which involved the Saudi royal family, the Bin Laden family and the Bush family, instigated by Rove and Cheney to use a national crisis to secure middle eastern oil? It takes less faith to believe in God my friend.
N.P.: at 3:35pm February 16
Except for the fact that my information comes from reading books and doing my own research, having never been privy to a viewing of Fahrenheit 9/11. But I'll make this real simple for you to answer. Did the ENTIRE world as you stated before, support Bush's invasion of Iraq? Yes or No, real easy. Why is that your research from the right so 100% correct, and everything else must be lies? You are talking as if your views are unequivocally true, and anyone that testifies to the contrary must have based their information on wishes and wants. Your side said lets invade Iraq because of Weapons of Mass Destruction, my side says Bush administration had plans to invade Iraq from day 1. Ur side has been PROVEN to be liars as no WMDs or anything resembling them have ever been found. Therefore, if one side is proven wrong, then the opposition must be right. You think because he bears the title of CHristian and/or Republican, that he is always right? U honestly believe Bush did a good job?
N.P.: at 3:54pm February 16
ANd in regards to the Bill Clinton library being grossly funded by the Saudi's, again, a complete falsehood. Saudi's contributed 10 million dollars to the library, nearly if not exactly the same amount donated to the GHWBush library. It cost 165 million for the entire Clinton library compound to be constructed. How can you even compare that donation to the billions, soon to be trillions of dollars spent on this pointless war in Iraq? Bush can obviously do no wrong to u because of his rightest and religious background and you chastize Obama for not falling in that mold. I don't care about any of that BS, a good job is a good job, a bad job is a bad job. If Obama blows it as hard as Bush, I'll be right back here in 4 or 8 years calling him on his BS. If he succeeds however, can you see urself in the same amount of time singing his praises? Or is that diff background just too much for you to overcome? Just curiously off topic, how long ago do u feel dinosaurs roamed the earth?
K.R.: at 4:07pm February 16
N.P.:,
Two people can see the same thing differently. Does that make one of the people of a liar? your opinion of a "good" job is vastly different from that of conservatives. Chances are we will never agree on what a good job looks like. Your view of the world differs from mine. I see good and evil... and so do you. The difference is you believe America is evil and wrong and our intentions are evil. You believe our leaders purposely harm our country for their own selfish gain. I personally believe terrorists are evil, the way the practice their religion is evil, and I don't believe our elected officials purposely seek to harm our country or kill it's innocent citizens. I know plenty of Marines that have purple hearts from combat, and everyone of them will tell you it is the cost of doing business. I don't put my faith in man, cause they always let me down in one way or another.
Heroic Fools: at 5:10pm February 16
The nice thing about these is I can read what I wrote. And you are right, I misspoke, which is what I get for writing things on the fly. I didn't mean to say, "Bush convinced the entire-world that Iraq needed to be invaded..." I meant, Bush some how influenced the entire western world that Sadam had WMD. Almost every intelligence agency confirmed those suspicions. Why wouldn't Bush have a plan to invade Iraq before 9/11 when the Clinton Admin felt it was of the utmost importance to do so? And to answer your past point about the countries who protested the invasion of Iraq in the U.N., you can put them into 4 categories. 1)been directly involved with over 200 million deaths in the last century and don't care 2)was illegally trading with Iraq despite the U.N. embargo 3)Has no army to send and my favorite 4)was a continent not a country.
To answer your second point: Its not that my points are always right because Bush is a Christian/conservative, Hell, Jimmy Carter is a Christian and I think the world would be better if nobody ever knew him. Its that you are only bringing up conspiracy theories. And almost as a rule I dismiss those. But yours specifically I will touch on. How can a man (GW) be so connected and so intelligent to be able to manipulate an entire country, and past admins, create a war, move thousands of men/women and equipment across the world just to secure oil for his friends in Saudi Arabia, but couldn't keep 1 flight for the the Bin Ladens off the record books?
GW is a millionaire who held the highest office in the world and your saying he wanted more? What is that faith based on?
N.P.: at 5:40pm February 16
K.R. I whole heartedly agree, people can see things differently. And some people turn a blind eye to things because of extenuating circumstances. My OVERALL main point is that when it comes to putting lives on the line, you better be damn well SURE what you say is there, is actually there. I feel like I was lied to on a rather large scale and yes, that angers me to no end. ANd if you want to claim that it was just an honest mistake, I'm still angered by the fact that all possible intelligence wasn't gathered before putting our troops in harms way. In no way do I believe America is evil, I love this country, but to turn a blind eye to misdeeds our country perpetrates in the honor of freedom, liberty, and justice, I can not do. And unfortunately I do believe our country perpetrates objectives knowing that collateral damage may occur, but they try to keep them to a minimum.
N.P.: at 6:00pm February 16
Why do you think so many men in history wanted to rise to become dictators? They get that taste of power and they want more. Thats not faith, thats human nature. The poor want to be rich, the rich want to be richer, and the richest want all the power. So yes, of course he wanted more. Any man, especially in that position, would want more...
As far as Africa, my bad, I had a Sara Palin moment. It was supposed to read S. Africa.
K.R. at 6:25pm February 16
They don't want to become dictators. They become dictators because they believe they are the only ones strong enough to ward off opposition that differs from theirs. Case in point, Fidel Castro, Hugo Chavez, Saddam Hussein etc. etc. If you believe George W. Bush fits in that category then I guess we really don't have anything to seriously talk about.
Heroic Fools: at 6:40pm February 16
N.P.! You mean to tell me this whole time you ARE a Republican?! After all by definition Republicans want less power (smaller government). The Dems want a much bigger government filled with government programs. A dictator is the extreme example of someone on the left. Before you say it, I know Hitler was on the "right" BUT he wasn't a dictator.
K.R. at 6:50pm February 16
N.P., Welcome to the fold.
N.P.: at 7:33pm February 16
Ahhh, you guuuyyysssss! You got me! How could anyone not jump to the darkside after all the persuasive arguments you guys made. I love George W Bush and I wanna give Dick Cheney a lapdance. Of course it there would be a six inch rule, an no touching, being as he is a conservative and all...
Heroic Fools: at 9:45pm February 16
So back to the fun stuff. Though you think all men in higher power only want more. Our America was founded on the understanding of human fallibility. Our government created a democratic experiment where there is a built in accountability with the separation of powers, with a 3 part government made up of the executive branch, the legislative branch and the judicial branch. The Constitution went further making sure that no man is above the law in any office. Further, that some men who have the power still release it starting with George Washington who stepped down after 2 terms. Every Pres after him would not serve more than 2 terms even though it was not made a limit until almost 60 years later. So history shows contrary to your belief that not all men in power want more. And you cannot prove GB did.
The world is an imperfect place and we have a choice between the stupid party and the dangerous party... My vote is for the stupid one.
As for your dinosaur question. I will gladly switch to theology/creationism if you want but I don't want to tackle both in one thread.
N.P.: at 10:07pm February 16
First of all, no one said anything about EVERY man in that position wanting more power, all I said was that it is human nature to always want more. And just as easily as you can say I can't prove Bush wanted more power, you can't prove that he didn't. Kind of a moot point. You may as well stop here, all your points are obviously proven fact beyond a shadow of a doubt and everything I have to say is ludicrous, "conspiracy theory". I can say without any doubt, that George Bush, and when I mention GB, I don't mean the individual, but rather the entire administration, failed miserably as President. Its not some undefineable phenomenon that made GB a bad president, it was his actions, all out there for the public to see. History will be the ultimate judge.
N.P.: at 10:23pm February 16
And there is my freaking point! All of my hatred and anger summed up in a nutshell. We don't let anyone tell us what to do in any facets of our lives, our military has fought for centuries for our freedom, yet we feel we MUST define ourselves by either, as you put it, "the dangerous party" and the "stupid party". I want my elected officials to look out for my best interests, not the interests of their party. Why do we just accept republican or democrat, right or left, conservative or republican? That notion is like nails on a chalkboard to me, I refuse to accept it because, "what other choice do we have?"
Heroic Fools: at 10:34pm February 16
Then at least we are clear why we differ. You feel GB's admin was a failure. And I say that there are few man who could have done it better. I am curious if you knew that Lincoln not only suspended habeas corpus but had the army in Main to "discourage" separatists from voting for an Anti-Union Governor. Did you know that letters from Europe and Japan were read by the government during WWII ordered by FDR? That there was propaganda posters that said "they're coming" made by the Government in WWII?
HIstory judged those men as heros and their "failures" as needed leadership.
N.P.: at 10:47pm February 16
I will tongue clean your balls if Georgie Bush is EVER considered in the same league as FDR or Lincoln. History judges them as heros because their positives greatly outweighed their negatives. Bush had tons more negative happen in his administration than positive, some were uncontrollable events, but most were done at the hands of those within his administration....
Heroic Fools: at 10:50pm February 16
Better grab some mouth wash on your way over...
This was my Facebook Note Post:
To anyone who reads this note,
The other day I left a post (which was sarcastic) that read something to the effect of "thanks America, JB is a great VP..."
I said it because President Obama in his reinventing of the office of president doesn't feel he owes the office of Vice President the respect to refer to Vice President Biden as "Vice President Biden" instead he calls him "Joe"... and ads insult to injury by dismissing a question as to what "Joe" was quoted saying. President Obama answered, "does anyone know what Joe is talking about"... Apparently President Obama in all his wisdom already forgot that Vice President Biden was his choice. If it was a bad one doesn't that, shouldn't that reflect on President Obama?
Add that to the many passes our new president is getting. It seems no matter what, his administration will be a huge success because nobody will hold him accountable to his actions or choices.
Either way, that innocent post took a bad turn. Two of my friends started a debate that I was pretty bummed to have associated with my page... Somehow, someway, their debate invoked the Iraq war, the holocaust and (like all political debates) the inevitable and cliche' comparison between Hitler and someone
That I cannot handle.
So for all you out there who learn your history and get your news from bumper stickers, this one is for you.
The United States is in a war for the 21st century. We fight a group that has no army, no uniform no loyalty to any one state. A group driven by a twisted ideology that puts their cause above any human value.
When America was attacked on September 11th, The United States could no longer ignore the 1000's of attacks on the U.S's sovereignty throughout the last 25 years, including the bombing of a U.S. embassy and the U.S.S. Cole.
In the MIddle East there are several nations who fund and support those activity including Syria, Saudi Arabia, Iran and Iraq. All have/had corrupt leaders but none were as unstable as Iraq. Before President Bush, during the Clinton administration and before 9/11, the Clinton administration and most everyone in both houses of Congress felt it should be the next administration's priority to remove Saddam Hussein.
If you look on a map of the Middle East you might also see that Iraq is unique in that it is in the Middle of the Middle East.
President Bush and almost everyone in Congress as well as all western countries believed that Saddam Hussein had the money, the means, and the will to be a greater and greater threat.
After going into Iraq it was discovered that Kofi Annan was trading supplies illegally with Saddam for oil from Iraq. This turn also indicted both France and Germany (two countries who were against the invasion of Iraq). Ironically, those fools who have the "No Blood for Oil" stickers (and deck graphics) don't seem to hear or read the news. Because it was the leader of the U.N., France and Germany who traded and were standing by as Saddam invaded Libya, killing 1000's and used biological weapons against a region of his own country killing over 250,000 people.
As for the deaths of Iraq. Recently, the man who was tallying the body count of Iraq at over 1,000,000 Iraq's is being charged with corruption of information... According to Iraq's records since the U.S. invaded Iraq there has been 50,000 casualties. Close to 4300 of which are U.S. soldiers and 35000 who are Syrians, Saudis, and other aliens to Iraq. Leaving a death toll of 11,000 Iraq's most of who have been killed by the outside forces who are fighting the U.S.
All this is completely confirmable to most any new organization.
As for the comparison of George Bush and Hitler. It seems ridiculous to have to even explain this but Hitler obviously committed genocide, killing off gypsies, the crippled, gays, many Polish, and in greater numbers, the Jews. He was driven by a desire to create what he called the Third Reich, (Third Empire) and "the perfect society" by way of murdering all those thought to be "unworthy of life" Hitler's SS army humiliated their prisoners by stripping them naked in groups and parading them, raping them, starving them, working them to death and, shooting them at random
There has been a calculation of over 12,000,000 deaths because of Hitler.
George Bush's legacy is a free Iraq, a safe country after our biggest attack on the U.S. ever... His greatest failure is not conveying his successes. To compare George Bush and Hitler is either incredibly naive, completely uneducated or completely unconnected to reality or devoid any intelligence.
Ignorance is a luxury freedom affords.
This was the debate!
its a long one... I changed the names of everyone... my comments start out with "Heroic Fools", the person I am debating is "N.P." and some friends B.B. K.R. and R.R.R. chime in... Enjoy...
N.P. at 9:13am February 13:
"Hitler's SS army humiliated their prisoners by stripping them naked in groups and parading them, raping them, starving them, working them to death and, shooting them at random".
Really? Ever heard of Abu Ghraib? Guantanamo BAy? Weird how I missed all that photographic evidence of those atrocities.....Oh, wait I did see those! Under George Bush's military command, the SAME things happened. Weird.
I'm sorry you mistake actual truth for ignorance, it'd be nice to live in this Utopian society where Christianity and Republican ideals solved all. Unfortunately we tried the republican way the last 8 years and the COuntry turned to shit. Now is the part where you say that it wasn't Bush's fault, it all just fell into his lap. "His greatest failure is not conveying his successes? Really? And what successes were these? The unlimited amounts of WMDs found in Iraq? An economy that is in the toilet? Highest unemployment rates in 50 years? I must be naive and devoid of intelligence.
Heroic Fools: at 9:41am February 13
Intelligence maybe not be what you are missing, but factual information and perspective is. If you are comparing 7 men who were in their underwear (who were being held for terrorist activities) by a few soldiers who have been since put in prison to the thousands of INNOCENT men and women dehumanized, stripped down naked (no underwear) in front of each other in the freezing cold, and actually tortured to the point of death, then there is no debate here.
If you cannot see the difference and actually equate the two events then at least we are clear where you stand. I'm absolutely sure EVERY human being in those Nazi camps would have traded places with anyone in Abu Ghraib or Gitmo...
Its also too bad you have such a vendetta against Conservatives, Christians, and Republicans since this country and your freedoms were founded on two of those ideals.
Heroic Fools: at 10:11am February 13
Oh and this country and this economy... I can appreciate your sarcasm but here are facts:
in 2005-2006-and 2007 Republicans (including President Bush) warned the Congress and Senate (who have been Democrat majorities for the last 2 years) about the need for regulations on banks who were tying up bad loans from unqualified applicants with good ones. The housing market crashed because of a Democrat initiative to create housing for poorer people by forcing banks to lower their standard for un-qualify applicants. Barney Frank Chair of the Banking Committee was quoted saying, "there was no problem". And, any bill that tried to go through both the House and Senate by Reps was blocked by a party vote with the Dems voting against any measure...
The market crashed, homeowners defaulted, banks lost billions and ended credits for businesses, freezing the economy... From there weaker business starting failing...
The President is only one branch in this government...
Facts are hard to avoid...
N.P.: at 11:49am February 13
Oh really??? FOX news does NOT constitute fact based news...
"The Bush administration backed off proposed crackdowns on no-money-down, interest-only mortgages years before the economy collapsed, buckling to pressure from some of the same banks that have now failed. It ignored remarkably prescient warnings that foretold the financial meltdown, according to an Associated Press review of regulatory documents."
“Expect fallout, expect foreclosures, expect horror stories,” California mortgage lender Paris Welch wrote to U.S. regulators in January 2006, about one year before the housing implosion cost her a job.
N.P.:at 12:00pm February 13
ANd as far as being against the ideals this country was founded on? Not true. I can't get behind this Christian holier than though approach to life. Christian have made horrid and despicable judgements on non-Christians based on a system of beliefs that come from nothing more factual then fairy tales. They pick and choose which part of the Bible to read literally and which can be skewed to plead their case for whatever specific hot topic has arisen at that moment. Ever enjoyed shrimp or shellfish? The Bible says it is not to be eaten. One of many passages that are dismissed by the good Christian people. You either take it literally, or you take it contextually. Or if you're a MODERN Christian, you pick and choose what is taken literally and what is not....
N.P.: at 12:05pm February 13
I'd love to hang around this fireside chat, but I'm off to Vegas for a weekend of "liberal" based activities and debauchery. Let me know how the liberal bashing goes...
Heroic Fools: at 1:33pm February 13
Its nice that you can research events N.P., but you might realize at some point that the President can only make motion to a bill and cannot pass it without approval from the Congress and Senate. With an unbudging Democrat majority, the Bush administration had to move their attentions elsewhere. Not to mention that if anyone should have been warning us it should have been Barney Frank (Democrat) the chairman of the House Financial Services Committee which oversees the housing and banking industries.
Its funny how facts keep getting in the way of your opinions.
As far as you points on the bible. You've been mislead. You are confusing many issues, one being the difference between Hebraic laws and the new covenant of Christianity as well as the bible's recording of events contrasted with the bible's directions.
Arguably, you have the holier than thou attitude, and want to push your faiths on other people. This all started because I disagreed with your comparison of Hitler and Bush
R.R.R.: at 2:01pm February 13
Hey Heroic Fools, check this out:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cMnSp4qEXNM&NR=1
You will need to copy and paste it into your browser.
N.P., I would like to hear your thoughts on the video above...when you get back of course!
N.P.: at 2:01pm February 13
4 diatribes about how all my opinions are invalid and my facts don't hold any weight, and you wanna say I'm holier than thou? That is laughable. I guess I should just be quiet about it cuz I'm obviously wrong. On the flip side, I guess I should be happy that you didn't tell me that I need to find Jesus or tell me that you're going to pray for me. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree here...
Heroic Fools:at 2:20pm February 13
I can't say that I care if you "find Jesus" but I sure hope you find peace... You're pretty angry...
B.B. at 7:18pm February 13
Impressive, Heroic Fools. I would love to comment, but there's not a whole lot that I could possibly add.
But, N.P., I will say that Jesus, said that "Its not what goes into a man that makes him unclean, but what comes out." So I can eat shellfish six ways to Sunday and its ok, cause the Sone of God said it was ok.
And maybe you should leave our Christian faith out of it. Based upon what you have written, you are ignorant as to what the body of Christ (Christians) stands for.
And of course you need to find Jesus! How much would I have to hate you to tell you that you didnt? Cause I can promise you that any other way will end really really badly.
N.P.: at 8:08pm February 13
awwwe, thanks for your concern B.B. Realizing that you don't know me from Adam, know my history, educational background, or whether or not I enjoy a good game of devils advocate, let me ask you. How do you know a relationship with Jesus will keep me from experiencing this bad bad ending? Can you unequivocally prove that? Or are u basing that statement on faith? And if so, what about human beings on this earth who live their entire lifetime having never been introduced to Jesus or Christianity? Under your set of beliefs, are those humans then condemned to eternal damnation? And if that isn't the case, then is it different for someone in civilized society to learn about Christianity and choose to believe differently? Would that person be condemned? If so, prove it...
B.B.:at 10:35pm February 13
Haha, I dont have to know you or know anything about you to care about you. It's just one of the things Christ has taught me. Haha, a nd I can tell that you obviously enjoy playing devil's advocate, otherwise we wouldnt be having this discussion. I can tell that youre a knowledgeable guy though, which is admirable, but at the same time I think it works against you.
I know Christ is the only one that can and will save you from this "bad ending" based upon what scripture teaches. I wish more than anything to prove it to you, but I cant nor will I be able to until Christ returns. Faith in Christ is what is necessary for salvation...If I could scientifically prove it to you, what merit would there be in placing your faith in Christ as payment for your sins? It wouldnt be faith then. God just wants you to CHOOSE Him. But, yeah, Its all based on faith. Your unequivocal proof requires faith.
B.B.: at 10:52pm February 13
Now, on to your other question, which is a good question by the way. I come acrossed it a lot. Its true, there are people who live their entire lives without ever being introduced to the idea of Jesus or Christianity.
Based upon what I have learned from the Bible, I believe that in the course of every persons life, they have a revelation. Its nothing crazy. Its not like an acid trip or anything like that. Its a moment of insight where they naturally come to the knowledge that God the Father exists, and He is holy. With this they also come to the understanding that they are sinful and deserving of punishment. Scripture says that everyone in their heart has an understanding of true right and wrong, not a relative truth, but an absolute truth. They know they are guilty and in need of sanctification. So, if a person like this is condenmed, it's not because they rejected Christ, but because they still rejected the one true God.
B.B.: at 10:56pm February 13
Further more, in this age of civilized modernism, if someone learns of Christ and chooses to believe otherwise, scripture teaches that they are condenmed.
And of course, all that too is based on scripture and faith, which I understand is a tough concept for you, but maybe one day...I hope you will understand.
N.P.: at 10:24am February 15
So B.B., you're unequivocal proof requires faith? Seems like all rational thought would tell you that is a bit oxymoronic. If I have faith that I'm going to marry Angelina Jolie, and I truly believe that, then it will prove to be unequivocally true? Awesome!
And this whole notion of people knowing they are deserving of punishment seems awfully masochistic. I've been introduced to the notion of Christ, and yet I don't feel any inkling of needing any punishment. I live my life treating others as I wish to be treated and surprisingly enough I never have the feeling that I need to be punished. Isn't that the summation of Christs teachings? All those parables and chapters in the Bible and I feel that is the overall message. Sitting in a building 1-7 days a week singing and praying works for some I suppose, those that need constant reassurance that they are loved and are living the "right" way. I don't find that necessary when I already believe I'm living the right way. I just can't believe that Christ is soooo angry that he wants the entire human race to be punished and to live in constant, unrelenting fear...
N.P.: at 10:59am February 15
And just to tie this back to the original topic, I guess Georgie W was rather Christ-like afterall. He ruled his minions by keeping them in a state of permanent fear. We were all so fearful that Iraq had WMDs that we allowed him to march us into Iraq killing our young people for absolutely nothing. It's so sad to me that all those brave soldiers were killed following this un-intelligence put forth by Bush and his regime. And to those that say, well we had to, sadam was looking to take control of all the middle eastern oil, I have 2 responses. First being, if that was indeed the case about Sadam looking to take over the worlds oil supply, then why did the Bush administration tell the world he was harboring al-Qaeda terrorists and had WMDs, neither of which have been proven true. Why not say, hey, sadam is going to take over control of all oil if we don't go over and stop him. I could at least respect that. And secondly, why did gas prices reach record highs years after Sadam was out and the US had control of the region? Seems to me that we did exactly what sadam was supposedly going to do, and oil prices still skyrocketed. It's okay, I am confident that eventually all the truths will come out and Bush's legacy will forever reflect his failures and that he used his time in office to achieve his personal goals while leaving the interests of our nation in a very distant second..
R.R.R.: at 2:30pm February 15
N.P., our faith is not based on some random notion that popped into our head, or someone else's head for that matter. It is based on historical FACT. Become familiar with history and you will find that Jesus is not some myth or a notion, as you call it. It kills me that you took what Benjamin was saying and turned it into I don't "feel any inkling of needing any punishment" in regards to Christ. Christ didn't come to punish. He came to save humanity from being punished, through His love...His unconditional love. Whether you like it or believe it or not...we will all be judged in the end. But He does NOT want to punish you. I'm bummed that you are this hostile toward God. But God loves us so much that he gives us the choice to accept Him or not. He doesn't make us believe in Him. But I just wanted to join in b/c I felt you took Benjamin's comment to mean something that wasn't said, or that you misunderstood it.
R.R.R.: at 2:36pm February 15
But N.P., you know I love you!!! And I can't wait to read more of these hot debates that you, and K.R., everyone else gets into. I'm not as well versed in the political thing as my hubby is...so I will leave that part to him :). I can hold my own...
N.P.: at 2:55pm February 15
R.R.R. I have no hostility towards God. I have hostility agsint the idea that there is only 1 correct way to live life. And if you don't fall inline, u are condemned. Why would god make us all so different and then make us conform to 1 ideology? I love and respect everyone and appreciate that they find their own system of beliefs. I don't look down my nose at them and snicker as MANY Christians feel they have the right to do. As far as the notion of Jesus, I just misspoke, I meant the teachings of Jesus. Now I ask u to reread what Benjamin wrote. "With this they understand they are sinful and deserving of punishment.". That was in his answer in response to my question about human beings never exposed to Gods word. He Is saying that these people have a revelation out of nowhere because they feel they've done wrong and are deserving to be punished. I love how people assume I'm angry and without peace Because my view differs from their own. Especially those of you who know me in real life and have for years. Do I come across as angry and without peace in person? I feel like I'm really accepting and loveable, maybe I'm wrong.....
N.P.: at 3:07pm February 15
Haha, R.R.R., you know I love you guys, its not a personal thing on either side...i hope. But these debates have gone on for the length of history and will continue long after we're gone. I do enjoy them quite a bit too...
K.R.: at 4:51pm February 15
unequivocal truth.
you only believe in things that can be unequivocally proven?
Is everything you believe based on unequivocal truth?
It seems you set an unreasonable standard since nothing is unequivocal. Everything is open to some imaginary doubt.
R.R.R.: at 7:06pm February 15
No, N.P…you don't come across as angry in person at all! Just over the computer :) haha! But I do understand that it is human nature to question and raise doubt, especially over the things we can't see. How else do we find truth without researching? I know what I believe, and I believe the Bible is the infallible Word of God. I have to put my full trust in God and His promises. And I have never been let down...even in the hard times. Like I mentioned before, the great thing about God is that he gave us free choice when he created us...so we choose our own destiny. He doesn't make us do anything we don't want to. Yeah, the road is narrow...but the reward is great! And I don't think we are all that different. We are all humans and we ALL have sin in our hearts. And I am no better than the next guy. But I thank God everyday that my sins are forgiven...by the blood that Jesus shed for me and you! We can accept it or not. Sorry to get all "religious" on you...
Heroic Fools: at 12:01am February 16
In response to N.P.'s last question:
I think everyone can agree that an accusation only takes one sentence but an explanation can take many. If it would satisfy your intellect I could just say “you are mistaken or wrong” but I’m assuming you (like most) reasonable people need evidence, which is why I offer my “diatribes” as you say.
Question: If George Bush went to Iraq to steal oil, spending 100’s of billions and soldier's lives, why didn’t he use all his evil manipulating skills, (saving time and money) and work his magic on local environmentalist? The U.S. has more oil domestically than Iraq in the OCS, in ANWR, in Utah and Colorado’s reserves. Somehow Bush is so intelligent that he manipulated the entire world to agree that Iraq needed to be invaded (including past admins), all the while wanting to steal the oil, yet he somehow is so dumb to miss that we have more oil domestically that is protected by an environmental act (which he has the power to repeal as president
N.P.: at 12:51am February 16
Kevin, everything is open to some imaginary doubt? Really? Nothing in this world is absolute? Hmmmm. Pretty sure the sun rises in the East and sets in the west for an example. Everything in this world has cause and effect....everything. Its how we prove and disprove theories, scientifically, based on facts. Can you imagine what this world would be like if we left everything up to faith and chance? Absolutes are instrumental in maintaining and exceeding our standards of life...
N.P.: at 10:27am February 16
Here's another interesting link regarding Bush's premature plans to invade Iraq. http://dir.salon.com/story/opinion/feature/2004/04/20/woodward_clarke/index.html
K.R.: at 11:46am February 16
It takes faith to believe the sun will rise tomorrow. You are not beyond the shadow of a doubt 100% positive the sun will rise tomorrow. You believe it will because it did yesterday and the day before.
Regarding Bush's evil plan to invade Iraq before 9/11.
Are you aware the United States has a plan to invade every country in the World? And every country has a plan to invade us. It's this nasty concept liberals hate wrapping their logical scientific brains around. It's called human nature. Since Adam and Eve, assuming you believe in them, human nature has been to kill and maim one another. If you prefer the animal kingdom, it's called survival of the fittest. No matter how you shake it, humanists are in for a heartbreak. It probably helps to blame one person for everything... it helps you make sense of the world.
N.P.: at 12:39pm February 16
And what would happen to your faith if the sun didn't come up tomorrow?
And K.R., you actually believe it was a random coincidence that of all these contingency plans we have for war against other countries, Iraq was magically pulled from the hat? Come on, you are smarter than that. There is proof that Bush had plans to invade Iraq during his campaign, before he even stole his way to the presidency in 2000. It is no secret that the Bush family was heavily involved with middle eastern oil families, including the Bin Ladens, which he flew out of our country the morning of 9/11. Its no secret that middle eastern oil powers would have loved to remove Sadam from power because he stood in the way of them gaining total control of the region. Its also widely documented that W thought his father should've taken care of Sadam in the first Iraq war. With that personal interest and Rove/Cheney egging him on, its no coincidence that we are at war in Iraq today...
Heroic Fools: at 1:00pm February 16
I try to stay away from teaming up in debates. And I do have a response for the last thing you told me earlier but EVERYTHING in this last comment from you is presumed assumed faith. Most of which is wrong and or distorted. Would it surprise you that Saudi Arabia were Bill Clintons biggest contributer for his library? Or that his ties are much deeper than the Bush family to the Saudis? Or are you getting your information from Michael Moore?
K.R.: at 1:26pm February 16
N.P.,
Read "The Looming Tower" by: Lawrence Wright.
Great book, won the Pulitzer Prize.
It's not slanted one way or the other. Clearly your views are slanted, and I believe you want the facts.
It doesn't paint GW as Satan much to your disappointment, but it does lay out many facts that will perhaps put the current world climate in perspective.
N.P.: at 1:59pm February 16
Heroic Fools,
Which comments are you talking about that presume assumed faith? Its fact that the members of the Bin Laden family were flown out of the country the morning of 9/11, while every other plane was forced to be grounded. And how can you refute the FACTS from my previous statement regarding countries that did not approve of the Bush invasion of Iraq? Those are facts. You claimed Bush gained the approval of the entire world before invading Iraq, which in fact is NOT true. And the only major ally, Great Brittain, tried repeatedly to get Bush to allow UN sanctions to do their job until finally being brow beaten into conforming..
1 more quick question, how may trillions of dollars were spent building the Clinton library, and more importantly, how many thousands died? Not exactly the same thing as the ties the Bush family shared with the Saudi's...
Heroic Fools:at 2:17pm February 16
My last comment was in response to your comments about the Bush/Saudi Relationship. Not your prior comment about the countries who did not vote to invade Iraq. For that I have a response that I don't have time to word correctly to fit into these comment boxes. However, your assertions are draw many parallels to the fictional movie "Fahrenheit 9/11"... And Those assertions are based on faith of which you have no "unequivocal proof". But to be clear, you are implying that there was a conspiracy which involved the Saudi royal family, the Bin Laden family and the Bush family, instigated by Rove and Cheney to use a national crisis to secure middle eastern oil? It takes less faith to believe in God my friend.
N.P.: at 3:35pm February 16
Except for the fact that my information comes from reading books and doing my own research, having never been privy to a viewing of Fahrenheit 9/11. But I'll make this real simple for you to answer. Did the ENTIRE world as you stated before, support Bush's invasion of Iraq? Yes or No, real easy. Why is that your research from the right so 100% correct, and everything else must be lies? You are talking as if your views are unequivocally true, and anyone that testifies to the contrary must have based their information on wishes and wants. Your side said lets invade Iraq because of Weapons of Mass Destruction, my side says Bush administration had plans to invade Iraq from day 1. Ur side has been PROVEN to be liars as no WMDs or anything resembling them have ever been found. Therefore, if one side is proven wrong, then the opposition must be right. You think because he bears the title of CHristian and/or Republican, that he is always right? U honestly believe Bush did a good job?
N.P.: at 3:54pm February 16
ANd in regards to the Bill Clinton library being grossly funded by the Saudi's, again, a complete falsehood. Saudi's contributed 10 million dollars to the library, nearly if not exactly the same amount donated to the GHWBush library. It cost 165 million for the entire Clinton library compound to be constructed. How can you even compare that donation to the billions, soon to be trillions of dollars spent on this pointless war in Iraq? Bush can obviously do no wrong to u because of his rightest and religious background and you chastize Obama for not falling in that mold. I don't care about any of that BS, a good job is a good job, a bad job is a bad job. If Obama blows it as hard as Bush, I'll be right back here in 4 or 8 years calling him on his BS. If he succeeds however, can you see urself in the same amount of time singing his praises? Or is that diff background just too much for you to overcome? Just curiously off topic, how long ago do u feel dinosaurs roamed the earth?
K.R.: at 4:07pm February 16
N.P.:,
Two people can see the same thing differently. Does that make one of the people of a liar? your opinion of a "good" job is vastly different from that of conservatives. Chances are we will never agree on what a good job looks like. Your view of the world differs from mine. I see good and evil... and so do you. The difference is you believe America is evil and wrong and our intentions are evil. You believe our leaders purposely harm our country for their own selfish gain. I personally believe terrorists are evil, the way the practice their religion is evil, and I don't believe our elected officials purposely seek to harm our country or kill it's innocent citizens. I know plenty of Marines that have purple hearts from combat, and everyone of them will tell you it is the cost of doing business. I don't put my faith in man, cause they always let me down in one way or another.
Heroic Fools: at 5:10pm February 16
The nice thing about these is I can read what I wrote. And you are right, I misspoke, which is what I get for writing things on the fly. I didn't mean to say, "Bush convinced the entire-world that Iraq needed to be invaded..." I meant, Bush some how influenced the entire western world that Sadam had WMD. Almost every intelligence agency confirmed those suspicions. Why wouldn't Bush have a plan to invade Iraq before 9/11 when the Clinton Admin felt it was of the utmost importance to do so? And to answer your past point about the countries who protested the invasion of Iraq in the U.N., you can put them into 4 categories. 1)been directly involved with over 200 million deaths in the last century and don't care 2)was illegally trading with Iraq despite the U.N. embargo 3)Has no army to send and my favorite 4)was a continent not a country.
To answer your second point: Its not that my points are always right because Bush is a Christian/conservative, Hell, Jimmy Carter is a Christian and I think the world would be better if nobody ever knew him. Its that you are only bringing up conspiracy theories. And almost as a rule I dismiss those. But yours specifically I will touch on. How can a man (GW) be so connected and so intelligent to be able to manipulate an entire country, and past admins, create a war, move thousands of men/women and equipment across the world just to secure oil for his friends in Saudi Arabia, but couldn't keep 1 flight for the the Bin Ladens off the record books?
GW is a millionaire who held the highest office in the world and your saying he wanted more? What is that faith based on?
N.P.: at 5:40pm February 16
K.R. I whole heartedly agree, people can see things differently. And some people turn a blind eye to things because of extenuating circumstances. My OVERALL main point is that when it comes to putting lives on the line, you better be damn well SURE what you say is there, is actually there. I feel like I was lied to on a rather large scale and yes, that angers me to no end. ANd if you want to claim that it was just an honest mistake, I'm still angered by the fact that all possible intelligence wasn't gathered before putting our troops in harms way. In no way do I believe America is evil, I love this country, but to turn a blind eye to misdeeds our country perpetrates in the honor of freedom, liberty, and justice, I can not do. And unfortunately I do believe our country perpetrates objectives knowing that collateral damage may occur, but they try to keep them to a minimum.
N.P.: at 6:00pm February 16
Why do you think so many men in history wanted to rise to become dictators? They get that taste of power and they want more. Thats not faith, thats human nature. The poor want to be rich, the rich want to be richer, and the richest want all the power. So yes, of course he wanted more. Any man, especially in that position, would want more...
As far as Africa, my bad, I had a Sara Palin moment. It was supposed to read S. Africa.
K.R. at 6:25pm February 16
They don't want to become dictators. They become dictators because they believe they are the only ones strong enough to ward off opposition that differs from theirs. Case in point, Fidel Castro, Hugo Chavez, Saddam Hussein etc. etc. If you believe George W. Bush fits in that category then I guess we really don't have anything to seriously talk about.
Heroic Fools: at 6:40pm February 16
N.P.! You mean to tell me this whole time you ARE a Republican?! After all by definition Republicans want less power (smaller government). The Dems want a much bigger government filled with government programs. A dictator is the extreme example of someone on the left. Before you say it, I know Hitler was on the "right" BUT he wasn't a dictator.
K.R. at 6:50pm February 16
N.P., Welcome to the fold.
N.P.: at 7:33pm February 16
Ahhh, you guuuyyysssss! You got me! How could anyone not jump to the darkside after all the persuasive arguments you guys made. I love George W Bush and I wanna give Dick Cheney a lapdance. Of course it there would be a six inch rule, an no touching, being as he is a conservative and all...
Heroic Fools: at 9:45pm February 16
So back to the fun stuff. Though you think all men in higher power only want more. Our America was founded on the understanding of human fallibility. Our government created a democratic experiment where there is a built in accountability with the separation of powers, with a 3 part government made up of the executive branch, the legislative branch and the judicial branch. The Constitution went further making sure that no man is above the law in any office. Further, that some men who have the power still release it starting with George Washington who stepped down after 2 terms. Every Pres after him would not serve more than 2 terms even though it was not made a limit until almost 60 years later. So history shows contrary to your belief that not all men in power want more. And you cannot prove GB did.
The world is an imperfect place and we have a choice between the stupid party and the dangerous party... My vote is for the stupid one.
As for your dinosaur question. I will gladly switch to theology/creationism if you want but I don't want to tackle both in one thread.
N.P.: at 10:07pm February 16
First of all, no one said anything about EVERY man in that position wanting more power, all I said was that it is human nature to always want more. And just as easily as you can say I can't prove Bush wanted more power, you can't prove that he didn't. Kind of a moot point. You may as well stop here, all your points are obviously proven fact beyond a shadow of a doubt and everything I have to say is ludicrous, "conspiracy theory". I can say without any doubt, that George Bush, and when I mention GB, I don't mean the individual, but rather the entire administration, failed miserably as President. Its not some undefineable phenomenon that made GB a bad president, it was his actions, all out there for the public to see. History will be the ultimate judge.
N.P.: at 10:23pm February 16
And there is my freaking point! All of my hatred and anger summed up in a nutshell. We don't let anyone tell us what to do in any facets of our lives, our military has fought for centuries for our freedom, yet we feel we MUST define ourselves by either, as you put it, "the dangerous party" and the "stupid party". I want my elected officials to look out for my best interests, not the interests of their party. Why do we just accept republican or democrat, right or left, conservative or republican? That notion is like nails on a chalkboard to me, I refuse to accept it because, "what other choice do we have?"
Heroic Fools: at 10:34pm February 16
Then at least we are clear why we differ. You feel GB's admin was a failure. And I say that there are few man who could have done it better. I am curious if you knew that Lincoln not only suspended habeas corpus but had the army in Main to "discourage" separatists from voting for an Anti-Union Governor. Did you know that letters from Europe and Japan were read by the government during WWII ordered by FDR? That there was propaganda posters that said "they're coming" made by the Government in WWII?
HIstory judged those men as heros and their "failures" as needed leadership.
N.P.: at 10:47pm February 16
I will tongue clean your balls if Georgie Bush is EVER considered in the same league as FDR or Lincoln. History judges them as heros because their positives greatly outweighed their negatives. Bush had tons more negative happen in his administration than positive, some were uncontrollable events, but most were done at the hands of those within his administration....
Heroic Fools: at 10:50pm February 16
Better grab some mouth wash on your way over...
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